Rich Cardona Media

170. How Human Behavior plays out in Entrepreneurship with Gianna Biscontini

September 8, 2021 no comments

Article featured image:170. How Human Behavior plays out in Entrepreneurship with Gianna Biscontini

.“It’s not up to leaders to reach into the hole and pull people out. It’s up to leaders, and to anybody who wants to help, to back into that dark cave with that person and just sit there.” – Gianna Biscontini

On this episode of The Leadership Locker, Rich talks with the founder of W3RKWELL, Gianna Biscontini. Listen in as rich and Gianna discuss behavioral science, toxic positivity, self-care, and dealing with the stress of entrepreneurship.

Gianna Biscontini is a certified behavioral analyst and is the founder W3RKWELL, an analytics agency comprised of board-certified behavior analysts, experienced change agents, and inspired social scientists focused on solving your corporate culture issues from their roots.

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Personal Branding | Rich Cardona Media

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  • 00:09 – Introduction
  • 04:19 – What is a behavioral scientist?
  • 07:16 – Gianna’s approach to behavioral science
  • 09:42 – Behavioral science and business
  • 14:37 – Dealing with the stress of entrepreneurship
  • 18:19 – The importance of stillness
  • 20:46 – Hitting rock bottom
  • 26:10 – The dangers of rewarding the hustle
  • 32:37 – “Projecting self-care is no self-care”
  • 38:15 – Gender stereotype and self-care
  • 41:53 – The power of saying “No”
  • 43:59 – Toxic positivity
  • 46:43 – Where to find Gianna online
  • 47:11 – Rich’s closing thoughts

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How to connect with Gianna:

GiannaBiscontini.com

W3RKWELL.com

LinkedIn

Instagram

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Connect with Rich:

Website

LinkedIn

Instagram

Facebook

YouTube

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Rocket Station

brooks@rocketstation.com

Transcript
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Everyone welcome back to The Leadership Locker.

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I have a treat for you today, but look, you're still in the right place.

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You're in the right place.

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If you're a new entrepreneur, aspiring entrepreneur, if you are a seasoned

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veteran in the entrepreneurial.

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You know, the problems are always going to come.

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And that's why I have some of these fantastic guests on Wednesdays, on Mondays

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and Fridays, you will hear me documenting the journey or sharing, learning lessons

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things that I've encountered and learned from, because I know we are always

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learning because we're always encountering problems and we're lifelong learners.

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So that's what this podcast exists for.

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Now.

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Now let me get into my guest Gianna.

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okay.

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First of all, it was fantastic.

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I interviewed Chris Do and then I drove about a half hour.

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Didn't hit any traffic.

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And I went to her place and we got set up in her quiet room or meditation room.

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And we had our podcasts.

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We hit it off because she, he has two rescues.

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Okay.

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Both of them are from Mexico dog.

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That is the rescue I have is from Mexico as well.

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She also had moved to LA from San Diego.

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I had lived in San Diego for a while as well.

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And all of a sudden, you know, like this is just like that amazing

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rapport that you build with someone, you know, just before an interview.

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And it's my favorite, favorite, favorite part of doing interviews

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in person is because you can just kind of feel the connection.

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As a matter of fact, we were DM-ing after a day or two later, and just saying

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like, man, we could have talked for hours and that is the absolute truth.

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Now what the hell could we have talked about for hours?

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It's not just you know, the things that we had in common and traveling

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and all these other things.

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It was about behavior.

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She spent two decades of working in the field of human behavior and she has gone

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far, far deeper than many of us ever will.

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So in her business endeavors, she likes to say that her client

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relationships are built upon.

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And honest and respect and have proven to be the most fulfilling.

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She's treated children with autism for many, many years, and then she

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pivoted she's coached Navy seals and supporting organizations to help

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them take better care of people.

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Okay.

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She's a founder at work.

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Well, it's a female owned site.

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Based well-beings analytics company and she was going to get into why

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they did analytics and not consulting.

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There's a difference.

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Okay.

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She's always been a photographer, a model to researcher, ballerina,

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clinician, she's factory worker.

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I mean like, this is her trying to be funny, but look, there's something.

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Yeah.

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People with this type of energy.

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That is automatically interesting, but I never would have discovered

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her if it wasn't for a former guest Stephen shed Leschi.

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Okay.

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And he is the chief ignite officer over at Simon Sinek team Sinek.

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And I'm so, so grateful that he introduced us because it was fantastic.

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Okay.

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It was absolutely fantastic.

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We cover a lot of different aspects of human behavior.

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We talk about depression.

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We talk about pressure.

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If you're an entrepreneurship, you are unbelievably familiar with.

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You can't fucking tell me otherwise, that's just the way it is.

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We talk about all of it.

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And then we eventually talk about her manuscript, but we talk about leadership.

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We talk about pressure.

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We talk about kind of cresting.

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The hill is how I always like to call it kind of climbing out and up.

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We talk about focusing.

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We talk about meditation and look science-based okay.

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Science-based like you can hear in the manner in which she

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articulates the information.

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I think she was doing me a favor by talking at a, at a level that a Marine,

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a retired Marine would understand, but you can absolutely tell, absolutely

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tell that this is science and that she's coming from a unbelievably deep, deep,

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deep understanding of human behavior.

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Like I said, that most of us will never come to understand, but it is people

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like her that are going to help you.

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And I become better leaders for the people that decide to join our teams

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for the people that are lateral to us, for the people that we desire to

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help understanding human behavior, something that we can just never ignore.

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And that's why she was on the show.

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So here we go from Los Angeles with Giana.

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So we got the good intro out of the way.

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Thank you for having me.

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I love to begin at the beginning and I don't know.

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Oh, a single behavioral scientist.

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So for the listeners you know, entrepreneurs, small business owners,

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what is a behavioral scientist?

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So

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I'm my full title is board certified behavior analyst.

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I see a lot of like people, scientists or behavior scientists these days, but

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they don't have a scientific background.

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And so that's a really strong delineation to make from the beginning.

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So a behavior analyst essentially they have a master's degree and they

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take a board certification comparable to the bar, really difficult and

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arduous, and very painful to study for.

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And so most of our field.

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Not really that well known because they work in the field

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of autism and healthcare.

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And so what we do apply beaver analysis is a subset of what we do.

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That's really the gold standard treatment for children with autism.

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However, there is another piece called organizational behavior management,

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which includes leadership and culture.

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Behavior-based safety and performance management.

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And so I went from one to the other and that's really where I live.

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And so, but our work is all the same.

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We're really, really good at assessing and environment because we know the play that

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the environment has on our behavior and what that by directionality looks like.

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And so that's really what sets us apart from other consultants or advisors

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or people that might do similar work.

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In, in our spaces is that we can analyze an environment and understand

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how that influences human beings.

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When you set out to do this, what was your specific goal?

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And taking it on and being like, this is what I want to do for this group of

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people.

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Yeah.

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And so I was in the field of autism for about 10 years.

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Worked my way up the healthcare ladder to leadership positions.

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And I just really hit my own ceiling.

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I.

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Was kind of doing the same thing all the time and I wanted to grow

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and I wanted to, to grow outside of our industry is really small.

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And so I quit clinical about four years ago.

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It was four years ago in June and traveled throughout Europe.

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Oh, well, hold on, hold on.

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Now we have to take a detour.

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Yeah, same here.

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So just give me.

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Three places during that trip that are just stuck in your

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mind for the best of reasons,

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Berlin I, the best day of my life in Berlin I would say Lisbon.

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And we stayed in Portugal.

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And, oh my gosh.

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on the coast of Spain.

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Yes.

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We have a really funny story.

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Like getting stuck on a human cargo ship, going to Morocco and not making it

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back and all those fun travel stories.

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So yeah, sane Berlin and Lisbon.

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Okay.

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I can't wait to talk to you about your life after this, but we'll get back.

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If I understand correctly, you kind of hit your own personal ceiling, which

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is something I love to hear people say it wasn't a ceiling that you felt

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like you needed to break or go get a certification or something extra to break.

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So you made decision on your own.

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But, okay, so you pivoted and then what was the beginning?

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What was undertaking.

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So when I was traveling throughout Europe, I noticed just the

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different quality of life.

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And the lifestyle is very different.

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Had been to Europe a ton before.

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But there was something different about this time.

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And when I came back, I started my own be real pediatrics process.

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My, my practice and after about a month, You know, why am I just doing

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the same thing that I was doing before, but on my own terms, right?

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Working with children and doing all that.

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And I thought, you know, behave animals can work anywhere, behavior exists.

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And so what problem do I want to solve?

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Right?

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What do I want to go attack?

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What do I want to go pioneer?

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How do I want to take this science?

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That's so useful.

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And so under utilized, what do I want to go do with it?

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Why is it

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under utilize?

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I'm sorry.

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Yeah.

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I have to ask, like interrupting questions like

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that.

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I adore it questions.

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Not many people know the science behind human behavior.

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And so they'll say, well, we do research with our employees and we,

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everything is based on research, but it's really just surveys.

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Right.

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And surveys are really subjective because, you know, you woke

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up in a different mood today.

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Then you might have a month ago that he might've six months ago.

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There's, there's confirmation bias.

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There's, you know, demeaning characteristics.

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There's all these things that if you're really using the scientific

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method, Of inquiry and of research and of data collection.

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You get a much more accurate picture than if you come in and just kind of

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intuitively throw spaghetti over a wall.

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It's very costly.

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And so there's a process of human behavior.

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There's a science to it.

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There's a process of scientific inquiry, how you arrive at answers.

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And what I found in my own businesses is that when I use this science, the,

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the issues are so accurate that you end up saving a ton of time in them.

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The reason why it's under utilized is because people don't really know about it.

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And because it's a little slower on the front end, right?

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There's no magic pill to say, well, we're going to hire, you

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know, a huge consulting company.

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They're going to come in and do a canned leadership and culture training,

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and then they're going to go, right.

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We come in and we measure and assess and assess and measure.

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And it's really important to us that when we leave, you understand what the ROI was.

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We came to do what you needed us to

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do.

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And what does the ROI look like for.

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Being completely business curious.

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So if my organization's thriving, we're, we're at a hundred people,

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which is like a dream like, wow, we're operating on so many cylinders.

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But I see that there's an issue we get in contact.

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Do you come what's my ROI, so to speak.

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So the first thing that I always ask new clients is what

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is your victory lap look like?

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What does success look like for you?

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Right.

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And that's great.

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However, when I started my company work well, we actually were going

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to be a consultants company.

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I were going to be a consultancy.

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I assumed there was a good assessment out there that we could just buy and use.

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And I, the Myers-Briggs and the disc and all these other, I mean,

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pardon me, but they're jokes.

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Yeah.

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They're, it's a joke.

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And so when we were looking into all these assessments, I was like, really,

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this is what this is, what's out there.

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And so I said, all right, Crow, now we're an analytics company.

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And so we went through health business and behavior research and identified,

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I mean, from a well-being standpoint, , you know, it's involved in everything.

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What dimensions of culture are there and what do we need to look at?

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And when I started my company, I accidentally became the face of

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it and I was on podcasts and I was on stages and I was like, okay.

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And people were really curious and I always would ask people,

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how do you define cool.

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And they would say, well, I think it's or, well, we define it as this.

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And I said, you know, if you don't have a baseline definition of something, it's

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a problem because you can't change or measure something that you can't define.

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And so we define culture, behavior, really the process of behaviors that

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are reinforced or punished across any given person in any given environment

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at any given time, over time.

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Right.

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We're creating a culture between us, right.

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If I make a funny joke, I can kind of test your sense of humor.

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We know where each other are, where we're from.

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We like to travel, right?

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We're creating this culture between us of, you know, after a couple

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of hours together, I'll know what is likely to be reinforced and

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punished with you on a high level.

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What to say what not to say.

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And we do this at work all the time.

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And so we created our own work well index.

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We created an assessment.

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So if you were to come to me and say, Hey, you know, our, our retention is terrible.

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People are really stressed.

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People are leaving beef, present, stressed out, and we want you to help us.

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That's circular reasoning, right?

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People are leaving because they're under stress, they're under stress

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and then they're leaving right?

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That it doesn't really end up as a solution.

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So our assessment actually identifies stress-inducing variables in the

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environment across attention and focus performance and growth leadership,

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diversity and inclusion thought diversity across all these different

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planes so that when we get the assessment back, we can say, Yes.

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Your people are disengaged, stressed out and burned out.

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Here are the three components of burnout, cynicism, performance

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decline, and physical exhaustion.

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Here's where they are.

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Right.

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Here's how you can fix that.

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And here's, what's causing that stress.

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Right.

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And I would say, I think we took a data collection measurement a couple

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years ago, about 76% of the time.

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What leaders came to us for saying that needed to be.

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What's wrong.

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God,

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I have to ask this.

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If there was a bigger piece of the pie and some of the causal factors

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that you're discussing in terms of burnout, how much of it does it reflect

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on the leaders of the organization?

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And, and do they take ownership when you present that to them?

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If you present it to them nearly

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a hundred percent and nearly 0%

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unbelievable.

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So how do you have that conversation?

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Rich?

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You're sorry.

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Fucked up.

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Like you gotta, you gotta.

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So, this is why I love data, because if I say rich, your culture is thought

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that it's not my opinion, right?

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I'm not coming in and saying, I believe that this culture is wrong

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and that you have screwed something up because that makes it very

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emotional and that you dig your heels.

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And nobody wants to be talked to that way.

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Nobody wants to be confronted that way, but we can take measurable data and.

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Here is where the stress and engagement and burnout of your company is.

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And here's why and you know, I don't point fingers.

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I say, here are the numbers, let's fix it.

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Right?

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And so when you can point to a graph and say, you know, here is the perceived

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trajectory of where this company is going, as far as retention costs or, you

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know, people like numbers, especially CFOs, you know, then you can get to some

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real numbers and some measurable ROI.

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But when I sit down and talk with leaders, they really seem to appreciate.

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The data because it's not something that I made up, I didn't make up

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the science of human behavior.

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I can say what 100 years of research into human behavior tells us is

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that if this trajectory continues, here's what you're likely to see.

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And here's how to address this and fix this in a low cost way.

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And high visibility, high cost way, maybe lower visibility, proximity rise.

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We do a priority matrix.

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Here's the free, fast stuff you can do right now.

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And here's the more costly stuff that takes more time.

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And we, we help the client build a process.

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Now I do like to begin at the beginning.

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So I was reading one of your blogs and I'm going to shift here a little bit.

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And you opened up about trauma and about depression and you've been living with.

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You got down to 89 pounds, which I was like, oh my God,

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my eyes popped out of my head.

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And the interesting fact was you understood a lot of what was happening,

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but you were for whatever reason, incapable of, kind of climbing out

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the reason I wanted to bring that up.

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For business owners and entrepreneurs, as you know, the pressure is extreme at

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some times, you know, it could mean the difference between going out of business

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or staying in business or keeping the lights on or feeding your children or

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whatever it may be, or looking like a fool to everyone around you, who doubted

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you from the beginning when there's that much stress induced on a regular basis.

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How.

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How do you confront what is needed to climb yourself out of that hole?

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Even if you're recognizing exactly what it is.

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You know, we, we sit in emotional states and we sit in logical states

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and they do not occur at the same time.

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So I was really, really fortunate to read a book called into the

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magic shop by neuroscience, Dr.

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James Doty years ago.

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And I learned about.

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The brain stress, trauma, anxiety, mindfulness, all of that.

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And so when I was going through trauma, not only the pandemic and the societal

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injustice and all of the things that we went through as a, as a world,

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but my father passing away and me getting really, really sick and all of

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that, I just became very, very aware that now was not the time to push.

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To make decisions.

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I think we have that natural fear of being uncomfortable and fear of the unknown.

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And I credit my, my recovery and pivots and everything I've

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done since with meditation.

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I truly believe it's a foundation to anything because.

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This isn't about some, you know, fit woman on a meditation pillow, in a

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mansion like calmly sitting by herself.

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And

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I just said that I was about to go further into it, but go ahead.

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This is about rewiring your brain and critical specificity and, and

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neuroplasticity and all of that.

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And so it allows you to be in this emotional.

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Shitstorm of upheaval and to not be numbed to it, to notice it, but

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not to judge it and make it worse.

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And to sit in a place that's highly uncomfortable and say,

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this is really uncomfortable.

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And this.

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And here I am and not try and run away from it.

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We eat too much.

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We drink too much.

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We buy shit.

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We don't need, we, you know, enter coping skill here.

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Some people run and exercise and do that really healthy things and

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talk to their support systems.

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And some of us go in the opposite direction.

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Some of us do both.

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I learned to sit in those really uncomfortable moments.

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And I think for leaders, especially male leaders, right.

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Males are extremely, generally analytical.

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They want to go from point a to point B as efficiently as possible.

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And when you get uncomfortable and you don't know an answer generally

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for males, that's very uncomfortable.

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Yeah.

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We don't ask for directions.

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Right?

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Exactly.

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I got it.

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I got it.

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And then three hours later, you're like, we couldn't be

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quiet 20 minutes.

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I refuse to be lost.

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I ask.

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Okay.

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Exactly.

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Going along with this metaphor when you were lost and you say I lost, right.

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At least you have the choice.

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I'm actually going to just take a detour and have an adventure and learn.

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And I'm going to sit in the fact that I have no idea where I am right

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now, but let's look around and see what's here, or who's got right.

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Right.

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When you can sit in that moment, there are so many more options and

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so many more lessons and it, that emotional upheaval turns into logic.

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I'm not challenging are or whatever.

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I guess I'm the type of person who believes in those moments.

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When I get into my modes or sad or frustrated or whatever it may be.

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I always find that movement is the key, right?

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Like got to move.

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But what I'm hearing from you is saying like, dude, you can sit in it though,

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and that's equally as good medicine.

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And that for me is completely, you know, I I'm, I'm not seeing it.

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Right.

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So for people who may have solutions or at least they think they're solutions

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to some of these issues or these weeks or tombstone days, I like to call it.

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Talk to me a little bit more about the sitting with it though.

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When, when they know there's other options, like how do I know that's

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going to make me feel better or come out stronger on the other side?

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So let

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me clarify by, by sitting in it, I mean, I mean, literally sitting and

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meditating, but I mean, we incur an aversive stimulus and we avoid it.

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There are four reasons.

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Humans do anything.

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Escape or avoidance attention, access to tangible items, food, money,

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clothes and automatic reinforcement.

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You just do it because it feels good and socially mediated.

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But when we have that versus stimulus of fear and, oh my

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gosh, I can't pay my bills.

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We avoid it.

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And that's the eating, drinking, you know, we distract ourselves by sitting at, I

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mean, it might be sitting down right.

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Looking at it in the face instead of running.

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Now I'm a huge proponent of movement and so yoga and all of that, all that

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movement is to prepare the body to sit.

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I quit.

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It's like when I was working with kids, it's like, okay, get all your wiggles out.

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We're gonna run around.

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And then we're going to sit and focus.

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Right.

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And you need both.

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And so when I talk about, you know, don't run away and sit

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in it, it's becoming aware.

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When I'm uncomfortable, what do I do?

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What are my escape routes?

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Do I obsess about work?

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Do I go drink?

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Do I go training up my friends?

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Do I go for a run?

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What are those things?

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And becoming more aware of them because yes, running and yoga

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and going for walks movement.

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Yes, I dance.

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I shake.

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I absolutely love it, but eventually.

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We're humans and we need some sort of contemplate of experience to sit and

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to actually think, because otherwise it's like being on a train, going 200

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miles an hour, you're going to get there really quickly and move past that point.

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But you don't see the view.

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You don't, if somebody said, tell me about your trip, you'd have no idea.

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It was all blur.

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Right.

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Just slow down the train and go there, the ELPs.

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Right.

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And then you're like, okay, they're the opposite.

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I've seen the beauty of this moment.

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Now I can move the train.

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I'll

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share something with you.

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That's personal.

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And I mean, some, maybe some of the people who've listened to have heard

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it, but when I was at a job that I absolutely hated, I coped by making

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some big time shortcuts at work.

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You know, that I knew I wasn't getting caught.

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I was taking risks.

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I was drinking heavily.

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And I mean, being in the Marine Corps forever, like drinking, just like hit

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until I started doing this podcast and then I showed up drunk to one of them.

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Well, it was a previous podcast.

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They never knew.

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They thought it was an amazing podcast.

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I was sweating bullets.

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Like they're going to smell this.

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I eventually, and I've tried to stop many times, but it just clicked at that moment.

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I was just like, I'm done.

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Next thing I know.

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I was like, oh, it's been 40 days.

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It's been 60 days.

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Like, well, I guess I'm just going to stop.

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Okay.

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The bad part is it took something catastrophic in my opinion to happen.

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I almost completely and utterly sacrificed my reputation, my character at work before

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I quit the podcast and all these other things, when we Barre and we cope and all

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these different ways you're talking about can you talk about the risk of it coming

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to a boiling point and what might happen?

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And it might not be breakout, but it just might be a severe plunge

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into the dark side of mental health.

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Absolutely.

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And first of all, thank you for your sacrifice and thank you for sharing.

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Jeffrey Pfeffer out of Stanford wrote a book years ago

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called dying for a paycheck.

Speaker:

And the title was a little dramatic, but he's a genius.

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He's got these algorithms to figure out what are the top 10 variables

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at work that decline mental and physical health, lack of autonomy

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and control is one of them, right?

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We're humans.

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We're not really built to wake up and look to everyone else and go, what

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can I do for everyone else today?

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And by the way, tell me how to do it when to show up and when to go

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home and when to sacrifice the rest.

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For you.

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We like to control things.

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We have ideas.

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We want to be heard.

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We want to belong.

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We want to be included.

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We want community.

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And when we don't have those things, when there are unjust decisions that are

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made, when there's a lack of autonomy and control, when obviously you're not

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making the money that you should be when you don't feel valued, those things can

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cause you to almost spin out of control.

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It's called counter control.

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Right?

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And so when you lose control, And I took the rope this way

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as a leader, what do you do?

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You tugged there out back.

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Maybe it's not plugging my rope, but it's sucking a rope.

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I'm going to drink, I'm going to do this.

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And we kind of grasp for control and other parts of our life.

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And that's kind of when you see that and, you know, I would say.

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There are people who maybe drink a little bit too much and drive home and wake

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up and say, I'm never doing that again.

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And don't, there are people with 12 DUIs who don't stop until

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they unfortunately kill someone.

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And so our consequences are powerful.

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Consequences are different for everyone.

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Everybody's got a different rock bottom moment, right?

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Or that decision, whether it's stopping drinking, leaving a relationship,

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leaving a job, just making a decision.

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Right.

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We can only get.

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So far and everyone's different.

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And so when people get to that dark space, I think that's, what's in it.

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That's when it's important to number one, sit and to say,

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what is this dark space about?

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What is my part in it?

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What do I control?

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What don't I control?

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Who can I talk to about this?

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And really start to dig into tease those things apart because.

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You can really only avoid for so long, this temporary, right.

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Escape is pretty simple.

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Unless you leave the job and say, you know what, I don't need this and you leave it.

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You know, I go to something better.

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But if you are in that situation where you have to keep this job, you

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have to stay in the relationship.

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You have to stay in the city whatever's point.

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Yeah.

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It's pressure and pressure and pressure, and those moments.

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It's not the pressure that hurts us.

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I mean, it is stressful to be in a stress response for that long.

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And your body's releasing all these, you know, stress

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hormones, but it's what we do.

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It's the overt behavior, right?

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It's harmful enough to have that cortisol running through us and

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then Alyse that stress response.

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A long time.

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We're not built that way.

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It's adaptive and spurts.

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When we're running from tigers and the cave woman days.

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Now our bodies can't tell if we're running from a tiger or dealing with

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the bad boss and our bodies don't care.

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And so, you know, this very adaptive thing where it's like, I

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need the fight flight or freeze.

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That's five minutes.

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I'm away from the tiger.

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I can live another day.

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Congratulations to me.

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We stay in that, running from the tire.

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All the time.

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Yeah.

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I think someone I interviewed said freezing is when you also leap

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between fight or flight, like when you freeze, like, he just mentioned

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that I thought it was kind of interesting that it's like, you just

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kind of go back and forth with them.

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It's there's not a traditional response that you usually undertake

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or it's paralysis, right?

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It's literally paralysis.

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It's like someone holding a gun to your head and saying like,

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what's two plus two, right?

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Oh, yeah, everything stops.

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And so, you know, in those moments, I say like stress and pressure

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needs to stop being rewarded.

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It's a social currency of how much we work and how much pressure we're

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wondering how much stress we're under.

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We go, oh, you just do it all.

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You know, you do everything.

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How do you do it all?

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And we rewarded and it becomes a social currency.

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Stress is a response to our environment and it's a signal to us that

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something is in need of attention.

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So if you are someone listening to this podcast right now, who's

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thinking I'm in a really dark place.

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It's okay to be in a dark place.

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You're human, you're a human being, not a human pretending.

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And so I would encourage you to find a safe space, whether

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it's a person or a place.

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And think about that and start to tease it a little bit, whether it's

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therapy, whether it's talking to a spouse or a partner, because we can

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only really sit with that for so

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long when you own a company or you're running a business and you have people

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quote, unquote, under you, you were just talking a little bit about,

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you know, reinforcing bad behavior.

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So you didn't say those exact words.

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What happens when I'm rewarding or any business owner?

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Is it rewarding?

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People who are hustling, like kind of staying, doing the extra

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things, like, you know, messaging you after work, sending you an

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email, Hey, I did this this weekend.

Speaker:

Like it's easy to reward those things.

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Feel the commitment and the kind of loyalty to what you're trying to achieve,

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but at the same time, that may dismiss my notion of, you know, making sure that our

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mental health and self care is intact.

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So how do you balance that?

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Yeah, I mean, when I was running my team in the healthcare setting, I w I had this

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woman who went out on maternity leave.

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After a month and was blowing her numbers out of the water and she's

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making the company a bunch of extra money and I sat her down and I

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said, stop, go be with your child.

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This is not sustainable.

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Right.

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I could have said, wow, I can't believe that you had a child a month ago.

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And you're back here, crushing numbers above people with zero children

Speaker:

and all the time in the world.

Speaker:

But.

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We know, reinforcement and punishment.

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And so if I were to reinforce that behavior, she would

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likely continue to do it.

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But then eventually months down the road, I would be having a conversation

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of her leaving because she's, you know, it's not sustainable or her resenting

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me for reinforcing her and for pushing her, this is a leadership call, right?

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It's leadership used to see the long game.

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Right.

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Not the short game of just carrying another day, carry another

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day, keep doing another day.

Speaker:

There are sprints and then there are breaks.

Speaker:

And I think we all have to redefine our definition of what hard work

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looks like and being good at your job looks like because to reward behavior

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like that, working nights, weekends, and just never stopping goes against

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everything we know about performance and the human body and the brain.

Speaker:

And so.

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When we reward that behavior, we're going against all logic.

Speaker:

And so I had her put, I actually gave her a performance goal of putting two

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hours in her schedule every single week.

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I said, please do not go above these hours.

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You do not need to.

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The company does not need those dollars that bad.

Speaker:

We're going to step you back up as you step into having a babysitter.

Speaker:

And I put a couple hours a week in her schedule and we did a whole

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values assessment with her and I said, you know, what do you really enjoy?

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What are the things that decrease your stress that ended up being reading with

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her newborn baby and going through.

Speaker:

And so I said, great, those are your two replacement behaviors for work.

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If you're going to stop doing something, you have to start doing something else.

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And it has to be functionally equivalent.

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She really enjoyed her work and I said, great, go do

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something else you really enjoy.

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And it's functionally equivalent and it made her better at her job.

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This is embarrassing.

Speaker:

I'm buying a house in Annapolis.

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I'm doing a renovation inside and I'm spending a lot of extra

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money on the bathroom because some of the best ideas I've had.

Speaker:

Is when I'm taking a bath when I'm taking a nap or when I'm going for

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a walk or a run, I have tripped and fallen and yard sales because I needed

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to stop in the middle of a run and pull my phone out and write down an idea.

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Right.

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And so, yeah, I mean, I think it's a very simple switch, but it's

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almost like it's almost too much.

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All right, everyone, we're going to take a quick break to identify

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the sponsor rocket station.

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I'll talk to you about them.

Speaker:

I'm sitting here.

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Wondering if you heard the dogs barking during the interview, and

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if you didn't, you probably will.

Speaker:

Cause they step it up quite a bit, but hopefully not.

Speaker:

Look, that's just how it is.

Speaker:

Like what am I going to do?

Speaker:

Say we gotta get outta here.

Speaker:

Can you go shut them up or anything like that?

Speaker:

No, they're awesome.

Speaker:

They're dogs, dogs, bark dogs.

Speaker:

Want to hang out with their mom and that's just the way it is.

Speaker:

So sorry, if you hear that.

Speaker:

She, and I were talking about business after the podcast a little bit, it

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was just really funny thinking about how much, how many things go into

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the business and how much we take on that we, we feel the need to and

Speaker:

how much you probably just have.

Speaker:

But at some point, at some point you need a relief valve and that relief valve

Speaker:

comes in the form of help people help.

Speaker:

Okay.

Speaker:

And in my case, and in your case, hopefully virtual assistance.

Speaker:

And I hate using that word because they can be whatever you need them to be.

Speaker:

I use rocket station.

Speaker:

I interviewed their CEO a long time ago.

Speaker:

I love their COO.

Speaker:

Every single person I've ever dealt with on that organization has.

Speaker:

Unbelievably professional and completely dedicated to help now while rockin station

Speaker:

does, they're based out of Dallas and they have international VAs, what they do is

Speaker:

they help you offload all the bullshit.

Speaker:

Okay?

Speaker:

All the things that you need relief from because they are time-consuming because

Speaker:

your business is growing or because it's stagnant and you need it to grow.

Speaker:

And you can't because you're doing too many things.

Speaker:

Is exactly why you would look into someone like rocket station.

Speaker:

Now I've mentioned it before in other podcasts, but here is a difference

Speaker:

between them and someone you could find on Upwork or Craigslist

Speaker:

or from a friend or whatever.

Speaker:

Number one, they're far more affordable.

Speaker:

Number two, even if you find someone somehow more affordable

Speaker:

than them, especially if they're international, there's no oversight.

Speaker:

There's no.

Speaker:

It's you and them.

Speaker:

I have guardrails.

Speaker:

She has one that stays in touch with her.

Speaker:

And with me, sometimes we have meetings together to check on progress, to talk

Speaker:

about performance, talk about everything.

Speaker:

You don't get that somewhere else.

Speaker:

And then over that you have the entire kind of personnel team, and there's

Speaker:

an operations manager who kind of sticks through for the first 90 days

Speaker:

to make sure everything's going well.

Speaker:

Now, the biggest part of this is at the beginning of the process before

Speaker:

you're even interviewing people, is you have a process mapping, which means.

Speaker:

You were going to talk about all the shit that you don't want to do anymore.

Speaker:

All this shit that you want to offload.

Speaker:

And they're going to draw it out in a process document for you or documents.

Speaker:

Okay.

Speaker:

At the end of the show, I will give you the email and how to set up an appointment

Speaker:

to talk to them and how you get 25% off.

Speaker:

Invest in yourself, to me is no longer getting, you know, clothes or a cool car.

Speaker:

Upgraded computer investing in myself means investing in someone who's

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going to help me grow the business.

Speaker:

And if you listen to my episode with Gary V he says it very specifically.

Speaker:

Are not willing to hire help, because they're going to make a few thousand

Speaker:

more this month when they're actually going to make a lot less over the

Speaker:

course of a decade, hire the help.

Speaker:

And you will 10 X, 20 X who knows in the next decade.

Speaker:

Get the help.

Speaker:

Now listen at the end for who you can write, who you can read.

Speaker:

I've read it.

Speaker:

One of your posts about self-care doesn't have to be expensive,

Speaker:

something or words to that effect.

Speaker:

And I was like, I'm so glad someone said it.

Speaker:

You know, we kind of talked about it earlier with the yoga and the

Speaker:

meditating out of mansion, but projecting self care is not self care.

Speaker:

So can you talk to me about.

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How to dispel the notion of, of spending to look like you're taking

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care of yourself when you're actually

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not.

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Yeah.

Speaker:

I love candles and sweatpants and lounge wear as much as the next person.

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However, when you look up the definition of self-care, it's something that you

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do to improve your health and wellbeing.

Speaker:

And so while products can support that, I made the point that.

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Spending hundreds of dollars a month on shit that you don't need is

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not going to lead to a sustainable improvement in your health.

Speaker:

If magazines truly wanted to help us take care of ourselves,

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they would be selling us.

Speaker:

Coaches and therapists and you know, I see ways to set boundaries here and there.

Speaker:

But you know, these are the things that we have to, I think that self

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care comes from self love, right?

Speaker:

So if, if you're my boss and you were stealing my time well

Speaker:

beyond what I'm paid to provide.

Speaker:

And it's stressing me out and it's making me a worse friend

Speaker:

and daughter and partner.

Speaker:

My self love has to shine through my self respect, has to shine through,

Speaker:

and I need a way I need supports to be able to go to you and to.

Speaker:

Tell you what I need.

Speaker:

And I think that that is the problem.

Speaker:

I might avoid that out of fear, right?

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Oh, you're my boss.

Speaker:

And he's going to think.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

But so at the same time, if I have no concept of self care, I'm not going to

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be able to even hear what you're saying,

Speaker:

which is why I work with leaders.

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And not the employees, because I started working with HR teams and I want to

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work with employees doing the, the very impactful boots on the ground work.

Speaker:

And I realized.

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Leaders wouldn't invest in me because they didn't, they didn't access those

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feelings and those experiences themselves.

Speaker:

And I said, great.

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Whenever I get asked to take on a client, I'm going to have some

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executive coaching in there.

Speaker:

And I split it into a whole other side business of executive coaching from a

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wellbeing perspective, because once you've experienced something and you've accessed

Speaker:

stress reduction, more joy, all of that.

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Oh, no, I understand because you have to make it tangible

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for someone it's experiential.

Speaker:

And so, you know, when companies would say, well, we're providing all this

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you know, free lunches and yoga to our people and that's our wellbeing program.

Speaker:

I said, so you're telling me that they have to come in an hour

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early to access the yoga, right.

Speaker:

Or, yeah.

Speaker:

The burden of wellbeing and self care can not be placed solely on

Speaker:

the shoulders of employees, but the leaders do have to access that first to

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really say, I want to give this gift.

Speaker:

This is what it means to me.

Speaker:

I'm more productive.

Speaker:

Oh, I get it.

Speaker:

That wasn't just wasting my time.

Speaker:

It was investing.

Speaker:

It was resetting, it was neurophysiologically resetting my brain.

Speaker:

So I have more focused and I'm not stressed and distracted.

Speaker:

And so th that's why I enjoy working with leaders because that's how I

Speaker:

can affect the rest of the country.

Speaker:

When people contemplate self-care and I say, I'm going

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to take more care of myself.

Speaker:

I'm going to invest in myself.

Speaker:

I'm going to walk an hour a day every day or whatever it may be.

Speaker:

We just talked about spending money.

Speaker:

But what are some maybe trends that you see where people think what they're doing

Speaker:

is self-care and maybe it doesn't even look destructive or anything like that,

Speaker:

but that that's actually missing the mark.

Speaker:

And I know it was probably, yeah.

Speaker:

You know, specific to each person, but is there any trends you

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see where people are like this really actually doesn't help you?

Speaker:

I know you think it does, but it doesn't.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

I would tie it back to the over purchasing, right?

Speaker:

The over purchasing.

Speaker:

Not only, you know, we see it in Instagrammable, photo shoot, and somebody

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holding, like, you know, they're in some mansion and they look very relaxed and

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you're like, I want that, you know, ask any marketing person what they sell.

Speaker:

They sell a feeling and a lifestyle and a product.

Speaker:

And so you say, I want to feel that way.

Speaker:

I want to be that beautiful, or I want to be that relaxed.

Speaker:

And then you buy the product.

Speaker:

Right?

Speaker:

And so this is why.

Speaker:

The, the self care thing irritates me because these companies are

Speaker:

essentially selling a product that promises something that they can't

Speaker:

possibly deliver in a sustainable way.

Speaker:

You don't need the product, you need something way, way bigger and harder

Speaker:

to obtain, and it comes from within.

Speaker:

And so the things that I see people doing their self care, I mean, I

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don't know, I don't want to blow up any of the companies, but I think.

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What I see people doing from a con self care, like getting a manicure or pedicure.

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Right.

Speaker:

I love manicures and pedicures.

Speaker:

I love feeling more attractive for a little bit, but guess what?

Speaker:

Then I come home and nothing has changed.

Speaker:

My health has not improved.

Speaker:

If anything sitting there for an hour and not being in front

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of my laptop is what helps me.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

So why wouldn't I just go sit in a room like this and my

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meditation room it's free.

Speaker:

I can do it whenever I want it doesn't depend on anyone else.

Speaker:

And I can sit here for as long as I want and, and meditate or listen

Speaker:

to a podcast or something else, or just, or light some candles, right.

Speaker:

Or, or create another experience that actually truly reduces my

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stress and improves my health.

Speaker:

And so.

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Yes, getting a facial, like all those things.

Speaker:

And I also think it perpetuates the, the narrative.

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Women have to look a certain way.

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Right.

Speaker:

My self care is looking like this, right?

Speaker:

Like I just got out of a yoga class.

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I like threw some makeup on and like, you know, clothes are lying on my floor,

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not stressing about the way that I appear to the world is my self-care.

Speaker:

You know, it's funny.

Speaker:

I've been thinking from the male side of that to me.

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And I'm going to do a podcast about this at some point, but I believe

Speaker:

there's a huge market for people making men feel like less than men, like,

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because they aren't doing jujitsu in their spare time, you know, or

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because they're not working in their wood shop or going to the gun range.

Speaker:

And I'm like, it's crazy.

Speaker:

All these experiences I'm seeing.

Speaker:

I'm like, why do you need to go practice disarming someone who's got a knife.

Speaker:

Like for the weekend, like, oh, and you're also gonna learn about finances

Speaker:

and faith and all these other things.

Speaker:

Like it's, to me it's just trash.

Speaker:

So the same way, what you're talking about, I feel it on the male side.

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Cause I don't do a lot of those things and I'm proud of it.

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I'm like, yeah.

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Okay.

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I, sorry, I don't have one.

Speaker:

I don't like to mow my lawn.

Speaker:

I pay someone to do that for me, because I like to work on what

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I'm working on and this all comes down to judgment.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

Finishing a manuscript on this.

Speaker:

Exactly.

Speaker:

I was just about to ask

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about it.

Speaker:

Yes, go ahead.

Speaker:

No, I have manuscript.

Speaker:

Tell me about it.

Speaker:

So I'm writing a book about the 10 narratives that women are

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given about what they should be.

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Right.

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And in the beginning of the book, This book is technically for anyone, right?

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We tell men, oh, don't cry.

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And you know, don't be such a debate.

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Don't be such a girl, right?

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Anything like a girl is pejorative.

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And so essentially a man could read the book as well.

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I talked to trans and non-binary people as well with the book is written.

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I don't like to talk about things that I know nothing about.

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And so the book is written for, you know, males or females in America.

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And so it's going to.

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You know, be soft, be silent, be likable, look a certain way.

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You know, I was on the phone with my publishing company this, this

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morning and they were like, tell me about the journey of writing.

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And I said it was harrowing and depressing because you know, these things exist.

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Things have gotten better, but I wouldn't be writing the book

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if we were where we should be.

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And, and it keeps changing.

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Right.

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And I feel like we're chasing this gender.

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Where we're all, especially with social media, right.

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This judgment.

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And you're seeing these very curated images of what life is.

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I personally think liberating.

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It sounds like you too.

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I personally think liberating myself from that expectation of

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how things should look is a luxury.

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Yeah.

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Once we stop letting go of what things should look like or what it looks

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like for someone else, and therefore it should look like that for us.

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It's a luxury.

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That is that it's my self-care, it feels freeing.

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It feels liberating.

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It feels joyful.

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It allows me to be in a space where I can create and work.

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Right.

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When I said I was writing a book and was like, yo, you need

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a hundred thousand followers.

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Publishers wouldn't even talk to me without a hundred thousand followers.

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And so I did it as best as I could.

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I hired a PR company and then they were doing my social media and I got like, I

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don't know, an extra thousand followers.

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I don't give a shit about this.

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Like, I don't, this is not how I want to live my life.

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And so I'm doing hybrid publishing instead.

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But it's this currency, you know, what are we valuing?

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What are we rewarding?

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And.

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Stealing from us.

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In the meantime, I have 10 more hours a week now where I can read

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and research and create and write.

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Instead of like, sometimes I'm just like, okay, I need to, here's a

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picture of me drinking my coffee with my dogs, like, because I need to

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keep this up for publishing reasons.

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And so, yeah, I think we're just, our values are a little skewed and

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society, you know, publishing companies or whoever continue to reward it.

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And so I would say.

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If you want to spend your time on social media, building a presence

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and having a million followers.

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Fantastic.

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But we all need to start thinking for ourselves.

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We're all different.

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We're like we all have different fingerprints.

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We're all different humans.

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If you don't want to have a woodworking shop, you shouldn't feel like less of it.

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I don't, yeah.

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We need to redefine

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whatever.

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I got my give a shit bubble is perfect.

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Like I just, it, it explodes anytime anything is presented to me that I

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just don't care about, but that's my self care, by the way, like,

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it's this for anyone to say no.

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Is one of the most important things that I've uncovered.

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You know, I have, when I turned 40 last year, just be like, no, like, I don't want

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to go to the store or I don't want to do whether it's kids or work or anything,

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or you want to come over for the game.

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No, like it's okay.

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I already know what I want.

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I think it's just a progressive uncovering of who you are that

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allows you to just get to that place.

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We were just talking about where it's just relief satisfaction and no exaggerated,

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anything for anyone, including social

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media and how to be prepared when people don't like that change.

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Right.

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When we're changing, we change the rules.

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We can incur a lot of resistance.

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And so the last part of the book is not only these 10 beliefs that women

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are given, that you can choose to keep or give up and create more space for

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yourself to do things you actually do.

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Give a shit about.

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The, the last part of it is how to understand the resistance

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that comes back to you.

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When you start saying no, no, I don't really want to drink anymore.

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You don't all come on.

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Well, when you come visit, you have to dry you get the pressure.

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People don't like that change things.

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I even broke it.

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And then it kind of holds up a mirror to them, which is uncomfortable.

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It just projected back upon you.

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And so it's like prepare for the haters, right?

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It's not their fault.

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It doesn't mean they're bad people.

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It means that you made a change that is somehow negatively affecting them.

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And that is there.

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It's not your problem to fix.

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It's not a bad thing.

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You can just re gift it, right?

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Like, Nope.

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That's yours and keep on walking in your

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direction.

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I know that to be true, like the way I look at it, Some of my mentors kind of

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look at it is obviously you're doing something well because these people,

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all of a sudden are intimidated by your commitment to not do something or to go

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after a big dream or whatever it may be.

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So it's that kind of mirror, or that projecting is, is dead on accurate.

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We'll have to end here soon.

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But last question I wanted to talk about was you talked about projecting

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expectations of mentally healthy people, myself, probably other business owners.

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A lot of us who may be quote unquote, better off in terms of mental health

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and others have the propensity to try and have those expectations for other

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people, or why don't you do this?

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Or we try and fix it instead of listening, instead of just asking as

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many questions as possible and let them kind of weave their own way.

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To the answer, how can we not project?

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And how can we listen more?

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Although we want them to have what we have.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Yeah.

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As hard as the last two years have been, I have an odd gratitude for them because

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during those times where I was literally taking naps on my kitchen floor, because

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I could not make it 50 feet to my couch, I thought, yeah, Come back to this

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feeling when you work with people who are also in this space, because you come

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out of it and you forget how hard it is.

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Right.

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And you're like, just be positive, just look up that toxic positivity

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that just squashes and diminishes the experience that the person is having.

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So I might want to go, come over here to this positive space and

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like, be like me and I'll help you.

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You're not ready.

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You're not in that space.

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It's my job to come to you and to meet you where you are and

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to access my memories of going.

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Yeah.

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I told her and I wrote it like what it felt like not to want to be alive anymore.

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It made perfect sense to me at some place in my life.

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And I was.

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Well, and you have to hold on.

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This is why those dark caves are worth exploring, because if you really do want

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to impact people and be the leader and help people in the future, no matter

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what you do or be a better parent or spouse or whatever friend you need

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those experiences to relate to someone else, the toxic optimism and the toxic

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positivity doesn't get us anywhere.

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It makes the person feel worse.

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I had so many people that were like, just go meditate.

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And it was like, I know, I mean, I was physically capable of sitting and

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breathing, but it felt so overwhelming.

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My power was so low.

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And so it's not up to leaders to, to reach into the hole and pull people out.

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It's up to leaders and to anybody who wants to help to go back into that dark

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key with that person and just sit there and not try and be positive and not

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try and fix and not tire to offer it.

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That you would take right now because you're capable and they would probably

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take if they're in a better space.

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And so I think it's perspective connection and relate-ability that we really need

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to work on in those, in those ways.

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One of the reason I asked that and just a thought that just went through my

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head, as you wrapped up, there was the inability to have empathy or to kind of

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recall those moments because we want to distance ourselves from them so much.

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Like it, I don't want you to go through that at all.

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So I'm not even gonna bring it up.

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You know what I mean?

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Like.

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Good.

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I want you to pretend it doesn't even exist.

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So that way you're on the positive side, but yeah.

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So thank you so much for that.

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Can you tell us where we can find you and when we could expect your book?

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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You can find me@johndiscontinuedotcomorworkwell.com

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w three, RK, w E L l.com.

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We'll put some more of these clips out as it gets closer then.

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So thank you so much for your time and we'll see you.

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All right, everyone.

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So definitely, definitely check out.

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Giana is Giana biz, contini.com.

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We'll also put her Instagram handle down there.

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I know you liked listening to her, check out some of the clips

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I'm going to have on Instagram.

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You could find that my Instagram at rich Cardona underscore, which is

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also the place I'd like you to take a screenshot of your phone or listening

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to the podcast and tag me in it.

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Let me know that you're listening and please make sure you're sharing

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it with other people because that's how this podcast grows.

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Okay.

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That's how this podcast grows, but definitely checked you on an hour.

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I had such a good time talking to her and if you want to learn a little

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bit more about behavior, you will be able to find out about that.

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Like I said, on her website or on Instagram.

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Oh, last thing I'll say is it doesn't take long to leave a review.

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So I'm going to ask if you are enjoying this to leave a review.

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Okay.

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People love to see reviews, right?

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Everyone likes to kind of go to yell, but if they're going to go

Speaker:

somewhere and be like, oh, let me see how many stars are, let me see

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if I should get this or whatever.

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We have just a ton of five-star reviews.

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And I'd like to keep it up with some substance.

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Okay.

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Take the 60 seconds.

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Go leave a review that has some substance to it.

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So people understand what they're going to be listening to and how

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you may have benefited from the content that you're listening.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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The last thing I want to say, because without you guys, without

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you, this wouldn't be happening.

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This wouldn't be happening and it is my absolute freaking pleasure to serve.

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